In this interview I speak to one of the world’s most experienced kidnap-for-ransom negotiators, Scott Walker, who has successfully resolved over 300 life-or-death crises, facing down gang leaders, pirates, cyberhackers, and extortionists. Scott spent 16 years as a Scotland Yard detective engaged in counter-terrorism and kidnapping operations. He left the police in 2015 to support organisations, government departments and private individuals in negotiating the release of hostages all over the world.
In Scott’s first book, Order Out of Chaos (Little Brown, 2023), he explains how to succeed when failure is not an option, with proven techniques that enable readers to develop a powerful mindset. In the book, Scott provides tools for the most effective ways of communicating, particularly in times of crisis, change and uncertainty.
Q: What are the key aspects of creating a negotiator mindset?
[Scott Walker]: Most people misunderstand what a negotiation is. In my experience, it’s simply a conversation with a purpose. We tend to rush to problem-solving, eager to reach the solution, often leapfrogging several important steps. But to get the best possible deal for everyone, it starts with the right mindset.
Let me clarify: intention matters. You need to ask yourself, “What’s the reason I’m entering this negotiation, this conversation?” If it’s anything other than fostering cooperation and collaboration, I’d suggest rethinking your approach. The days of “I win, you lose” or “I’m right, you’re wrong” are over. We see this a lot in society now—intention matters. Cooperation and collaboration should be the mainstay of your intent, and ultimately the outcome.
The mindset piece is crucial. I developed this concept of the “red centre,” particularly in law enforcement. Red centre refers to a physical location where critical conversations—negotiations, dialogues—happen, often in high-stress, volatile, emotive, chaotic situations. My job there is to bring about calm, order, grounded-ness, stability, rational thinking, and to create a psychologically and emotionally safe space.
Through years of doing this, I’ve realized that the red centre is more than just a physical space, whether it’s a kitchen, hotel room, or embassy. It’s a place deep inside all of us that we can access no matter what we’re facing—personally or professionally. No matter the adversity, challenge, or overwhelming circumstances, there’s a place within us that helps us feel strong, stable, grounded, and centered. And it doesn’t take much to access it. It just requires the practice of pausing, taking a couple of deep breaths, reflecting, and realizing that you already have everything you need inside to get through that moment.
So, I think this is a long answer to say: before you step into the boardroom for that conversation, or jump on a Zoom call with a client to talk pricing, or even deal with your teenage kids—take a moment. Before you start talking or fire off that email, pause, reflect: what’s my mindset like? What’s my emotional state right now?
Q: How can we improve our emotional intelligence?
[Scott Walker]: …emotional intelligence, much like negotiation, is often misunderstood and overcomplicated. The way I like to simplify it is by dividing it into two parts: self and others. First, there’s self-awareness—the ability to emotionally self-regulate, which is the number one skill of the world’s best negotiators. It’s about tapping into your red centre and asking, “What’s really showing up for me right now?” It’s about recognizing your biases, unhelpful thinking, or negative intentions. By expanding this awareness, we can better regulate our emotions.
The second part is how we relate and interact with others. We have to start with ourselves and work on our own emotional state first. Then comes what I call sensory acuity. Imagine a radar on top of your head, scanning every time you interact—whether in person, online, or remotely. This radar picks up on what’s going on beneath the surface. What emotions might the other person be experiencing? What’s showing up for me? Am I being triggered? Is the other person engaged, or is there a disconnect between their words and tone, inflection, or body language?
Now, this might seem like a lot to think about, but most of us are already doing this subconsciously. Emotional intelligence is simply about bringing these processes to the forefront. It’s about tuning into ourselves first, understanding what’s going on inside, and then tuning into others, adapting, and being flexible in our approach.
This is where empathy comes in. People often think empathy means feeling the other person’s pain and drama, but that’s more like sympathy or pity—and that won’t help. Empathy is a doing word. It’s about understanding where someone like Vikas is coming from—what emotions they’re likely experiencing, their beliefs, issues, and point of view. If I can demonstrate that understanding, usually by reflecting back what I hear, paraphrasing, or summarizing, the other person might feel, “Scott gets me. He really understands what’s going on for me.” This is especially powerful when we disagree.
If there’s a gap—whether in a business deal, family dynamics, or on a geopolitical level—you won’t get meaningful, long-term change unless both sides feel heard. There needs to be trust, which is the golden thread through all of this. Both sides need to feel like the other understands them, even if they disagree.
A final point: people often think that empathizing means agreeing with, condoning, or letting someone get away with something. Far from it. No one says that by empathizing you must agree or acquiesce. I can vehemently disagree with you, but all I’m doing is reflecting back my understanding of where you’re at. That’s the final output of emotional intelligence. If you can do that, that’s emotional intelligence in action.
Q: How do you build trust rapidly?
[Scott Walker]: Trust is the golden thread that runs through not just a kidnap negotiation or a business deal, but life in general when you think about it. It’s the one factor that resulted in a 93% success rate in hostages returning from successful negotiations in kidnapping cases. Not 100%, but 93%, which are pretty good odds, considering it’s the most ungoverned, unregulated, and dangerous industry in the world. If something can go wrong, it often does.
Trust is built from the outset, and it’s a constant, never-ending process. It takes a long time to build, but it’s lost in an instant. Trust is about setting parameters, managing expectations, and demonstrating that trust—being trusting of others before they trust you. Interestingly, while we often want others to trust us, how easily do we trust others? That’s a whole different ballgame, and it applies to every area of life.
Trust is about following through—doing what you say you’re going to do. In a kidnapping case, for example, we would answer the phone when we said we would. The kidnappers trust that when we hand over the ransom money, we’re not going to ambush or kill them. Similarly, we need to trust that if we hand over the money, they won’t just take it and kill the hostages—they’ll release them and not demand more money.
Trust is hard-won and easily lost, but it’s the one thing that, if you can suspend judgment and approach a conversation, negotiation, or any situation in life with zero judgment and an open, curious mindset focused on cooperation and collaboration, becomes a natural byproduct of that approach.
Q: How do we approach difficult conversations?
[Scott Walker]: It starts in the preparation. And you’re right, difficult conversations are actually super easy—I don’t know why they’re called difficult. Well, they’re difficult because we let our ego get in the way and make it about ourselves. The real reason they’re difficult is that there are unresolved, unmet needs on one or both sides. Someone isn’t being heard, and behaviour that should have been addressed hasn’t been. So, so-called difficult conversations can be easy to approach with the right mindset.
Jim Collins famously wrote about how, in your team preparation, it’s about getting the right people in the right seats on the right bus. The same applies here, whether it’s a negotiation or a difficult conversation. The first step is to ask, “Am I the right person to have this conversation?” In leadership roles, we often think, “I’m the director, sales manager, or chief of staff, so I should be able to have these conversations with anyone!” And yes, I’m not disputing that. But in this particular situation, is there someone else better placed to get the outcome you want? Can you set your ego aside and step back to let someone more qualified handle it? That’s the first thing.
The second thing is knowing your ABCs. I remember learning ABCs in school, and on day one of detective training at Scotland Yard, we learned another version: Assume nothing, Believe no one, and Clarify and Verify everything. This isn’t meant to make you cynical—although maybe it does!—but rather to bring more curiosity than assumption. You’re not judging, you’re not predetermining an outcome. You’re going in with openness, seeking first to understand before being understood, and with a curious mindset. You do this through what I call level 5 listening.
Level 1 is when you’re barely listening, just catching the gist because you’re really waiting for an Amazon delivery or something. As you move down the levels, it’s when you’re just waiting to rebut—ready with your argument as to why you’re right and they’re wrong, just waiting for them to stop talking (or not even that). But when you get to level 5, you’re listening deeply—not just to the words, but to what’s not being said. You’re listening for the space between the words, the mood, the energy, the tone, the mismatches, the incongruences, and the authenticity. It’s hard to articulate, but we’ve all had moments when we’ve been truly listened to and others when we haven’t. You know when someone’s distracted, maybe watching TV on mute or checking their emails while talking to you.
So, part of your preparation, after figuring out the right seats on the right bus and knowing your ABCs, is to listen at level 5. But before that, you need to establish what I call a “bunch of 5s”—imagine the palm of your hand. Whether it’s a hostage negotiation, business, or home life, you identify the top five issues, threats, challenges, objections, or obstacles that are likely to come up in the conversation. You get ahead of the curve, because when the pressure’s on and emotions are high, you rise or fall to the level of your preparation.
You want to be in a position where, when something happens in the conversation, you can think, “Yes! I thought this might happen, and I already know how I’m going to approach it.” It’s not necessarily about having a stock answer, but because your brain has already processed it, you’re not caught off guard. It’s not like a sabre-tooth tiger jumping out of the bush, so you can handle it from a much calmer, more balanced, rational place.
Q: Does negotiation change on phone & remote technologies?
[Scott Walker]: Every single kidnap negotiation I’ve ever dealt with was done remotely—over the phone, through text messages, or via email in cases of cyber extortion. None of the crisis negotiations I’ve been involved in were ever face-to-face. I’ve taken what I’ve learned from those crisis negotiations and applied it to face-to-face interactions, human being to human being. But the principles and approach work regardless of the format or platform.
It all goes back to the key principles: seek first to understand before being understood. It’s not about you. You’ll get what you want once you’ve done the groundwork—building trust and rapport—so that the other person feels like you genuinely have their best interests at heart. It’s about taking the time to listen—really listen—and demonstrating empathy. It’s about approaching the situation knowing that there are human beings involved here, doing the best they can with the skills they have. Their behaviour may not be what you expect, but ultimately, they’re trying to do the best they can.
It always comes back to knowing your outcome and then fostering cooperation and collaboration. Sure, you can play hardball and win once or twice, but the goal, especially in business, is to get to the point where you have a queue of people waiting to join your team or organization because it’s the best place to work. Similarly, you want a queue of customers and clients eager to do business with you, not because what you offer is unique—Vikas may offer the same thing as three other companies—but because they simply prefer working with Vikas. It’s how you make people feel, the enjoyment, the likeability, and the experience. The quality of the product or service is a given; it’s all the other factors that set you apart.
So, no matter what platform or format you’re communicating in, the principles still apply.
Q: What is the importance of being our authentic selves in negotiations?
[Scott Walker]: …this so-called cheesy, cliché line about being our authentic selves shouldn’t be dismissed, and I’ll tell you why. We’ve all had moments where we’ve walked away from a conversation or business deal feeling like we’ve compromised some part of our integrity—feeling like, “I said it, but I didn’t really mean it,” or, “I just don’t feel in complete alignment.” Maybe there’s some necessity for that in navigating the modern world, but deep down we know when we’re not being authentic. So, it’s not something to dismiss lightly.
You also touch on a key point about emotions. We are emotional creatures that think, not thinking creatures that feel. Emotions drive all behaviour, and understanding the emotions present in both ourselves and others is crucial for success in a negotiation. If we can identify and influence emotions, we increase our chances of success. But as you mentioned, fear plays a significant role—it’s that old emotional hijack when we get triggered.
There’s a great saying by the spiritual teacher Ram Dass: “Just when you think you’re this enlightened spiritual being, try spending a week with your family.” They know exactly which buttons to press, how to get under your skin, and that’s just part of the human experience. But as I said earlier, the number one skill of top negotiators is the ability to manage their mindset and regulate their emotions. It’s like building a muscle—it requires discipline and consistently going to that “mind gym,” so over weeks, months, or even years, we can come out far more objective, calm, and clear-headed.
Fear is also a part of stress, especially in a negotiation. It’s that feeling of a lack of control, the unpredictability, and we need to get comfortable with that uncertainty—comfortable with the fact that we can’t force the other side to agree with us. Kidnappers were just businessmen looking for the best deal. They weren’t rational creatures, and neither are we. Whether in business or life, it’s about identifying what people really care about. It’s not just the outcome or the demand—it’s also things like respect, power, and identity. All of these stir up strong emotions, and it’s about truly uncovering and identifying those.
Q: How can we cope from the fear of consequences in negotiations?
[Scott Walker]: In a kidnap negotiation, if we mess up, people die. So when you talk about fear, anxiety, and stress, it sharpens the focus on getting things right. There’s no point in looking over your shoulder because there’s no one else to take over—it’s down to you.
But here’s the thing: a lot of what we get taught in negotiation classes is BS. You can’t separate the person from the problem. It’s neither possible nor desirable. We’re rational, emotional creatures, as we’ve said, and we justify decisions rationally after the fact.
In preparation, it’s about identifying their core interests. What’s this really about for them? As I mentioned, those anxieties, fears, and petty resentments often lurk below the surface. If left unchecked, they can fester, get under people’s skin, and completely derail negotiations. Identifying and addressing those underlying emotions is crucial to keeping things on track.